I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/18 23:55Okay... I know a guy that's just starting to question God. Okay... showing him atheism is easy. It's the skeptical issues I need to deal with, as well as tacking on phrases so my sentences won't end with prepositions. He believes in the following: Atlantis, crystal skulls, reincarnation, David Blaine as a magician, and that people can get superpowers. Now, I can't go my usual "JESUS CHRIST! YOU'RE ONE GODDAMN RETARDED ASSHOLE!" route because he's a nice guy and he's also doing some artwork on an upcoming comic of mine (if you want to invest, please do so). I showed him some Bullshit episodes and tried to explain things logically, but I think I have a Joe Rogan on my hands here. Where's the Randi signal?
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mddawson
User Karma: 5
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 00:25Sounds as if your friend thinks 'Heroes' and 'Stargate' are documentary series.
In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities.
I recommend checking out the various skeptical websites for specific info related to his beliefs:
Ask him why he thinks "X" is real then try and get him to work logically through his thought processes to see how believing in "X" is not logical. It will take time and patience - much patience - but the end result is worth it.
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Snerd
User Karma: 20
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 10:15I was going to show him a few things from Dawkins and "The God That Wasn't There" but I just blanked. I was taken aback that he believed in Atlantis. And what are these crystal skulls? I've seen a few in some magic shops before, but the ones he was telling me about are supposed to have mystical powers or something.
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unigolyn
User Karma: 6
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 10:30First, if they're not interested in changing their beliefs at all, just let it go. Some people just don't care to think all that much.
If he is willing to have an honest discussion on one of the more crazier subjects to which he professes belief, don't start off with a litany of why it isn't true. Ask him why HE believes in Atlantis. If his reasons are anything more specific than "I just do", they can be debunked. Pick a subject that's easily disproved to start with, and see if you can get him to admit he has no reason whatsoever to believe in it.
Again, this is all dependent on whether he has any desire whatsoever to question his beliefs, or if that desire can be prodded into existence by disproving some of his more out-there beliefs. I personally think you can't convert anyone above the age of 20 to not believe in Atlantis if they haven't managed to develop enough sense on their own.
Between the ages of 11 and 14, I was fascinated by theories of aliens building pyramids, by the purported highly advanced pre-Egyptian civilizations who traveled between South America and North Africa, leaving behind tobacco and cocaine in mummified corpses. I was very interested in UFOs. But I was also curious about science, physics, and space travel, and I soon found that the latter were backed up by facts while the former were simply speculation by stupid people. I learned to apply "formal" skepticism and critical thinking later, but the desire to know the truth was always there. Some people don't want truth, they want amazement, and intellectually lazy amazement is the cheapest and most abundant kind, if you can stomach it.
As for Joe Rogan, I was very disappointed that neither Penn nor Phil Plait understood his "visible disturbance" argument enough to point out the VERY obvious error in his thinking - if you're standing in a field of grass, say, six inches high, and you mow a large oval into it, let's say 100 feet by 400 feet, and you're taking pictures in the middle of it, you won't see a goddamn thing out of the ordinary. Fly a plane over said field and point your camera down - voila, big visible disturbance. A spacecraft disturbing dust on its approach, which is NOT straight down would create a disturbance that was visible only from space, not from a low sideways angle from the ground.
I doubt this would convince Rogan, because the absolutely indisputable argument against a moon hoax is the fact that the Russians would have raised holy hell about any faked or bounced-back transmissions from the moon. For the moon landing to be a hoax, the Russians would have had to have been in on it, which is just beyond crazy.
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Vlad the Impala
Moderator Karma: 162
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 12:55buy him the Blaine coin bite trick (then ask him why would someone with 'powers' need to resort to such crappy trickery)there is no possible use for a signature* except to demonstrate how funny/geeky/cynical/pathetic you are.
*including this one
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Aston14
User Karma: 3
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 13:13I was gonna say vlad. David Blaine should be easy, he just steals everyone else's tricks (with their permission, because the other magicians like to see their tricks on TV). That having been said... I don't know if anyone who thinks David Blaine actually has magical powers is savable... they may have gone too far...
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Vlad the Impala
Moderator Karma: 162
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 13:40Arf! Very True LOL!!
Randi's newsletter showing how Uri Geller moves a compass might help...there is no possible use for a signature* except to demonstrate how funny/geeky/cynical/pathetic you are.
*including this one
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Snerd
User Karma: 20
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 14:02I think he wants to be a skeptic, but he just believes in a lot of weird shit, and I'll have to go through and show him how all of it's ridiculous. As far as the David Blaine thing, I don't think he thinks Blaine has powers. He just classifies him as a magician. I'm pretty sure I could stay in a box over a river for a month. That's not a trick. The card tricks? Yeah, that's a real trick, but according to Penn, I could do them if I just practiced a little. I'm gonna see him tomorrow. I'll try to talk to him about these things. AIM conversations are a really shitty way to convey thoughts. It's much easier to sit down and talk with someone.
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mddawson
User Karma: 5
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/19 17:58I don't know if this would help or hinder but you could show him some of the Derren Brown clips on YouTube. Derren is an atheist and a skeptic but also a very skilled mentalist. Some of his tricks are very disturbing for believers in the paranormal.
Apparently the BS is: Native legends speak of crystal skulls as an inheritance from ancient times. Said to “talk and sing” they are believed to carry messages for all mankind, including what may be discovered when we overcome our fear of death.
I have a really good mp3 by Physicist David Wheeler about crystals and why new age claims are BS that I can email you.
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shadowsmirk
User Karma: 0
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/20 22:41Show him the JREF rules for the million dollar prize. Let him know that if any of these things that he believed to be true actually were true, the million dollars would have been paid out by now.
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Snerd
User Karma: 20
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/20 22:58shadowsmirk wrote: Show him the JREF rules for the million dollar prize. Let him know that if any of these things that he believed to be true actually were true, the million dollars would have been paid out by now. Goddamn it... I always talk about the Randi prize. I can't believe it slipped my mind this time. In fact, I mentioned the Randi prize in a class of mine the other day and it led us to, hopefully, watching some episodes of "Bullshit" and writing some short essays about it. I get season 4 tomorrow, so we'll probably watch some of them. I just can't believe I forgot the JREF prize. That would be the easiest way to convince him. Shit, he could even attempt it if he hurries. He could make the April deadline.
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Guruite
User Karma: 1
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/21 01:03Is there something with the JREF that only allows famous psychics to enter? (or is that the deadline that you mentioned...)
EDIT: Yep, I searched around the forum a little (I thought that I saw something about that here...)
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Orphia Nay
User Karma: 1
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/26 05:27Hi, all. This is my first post here, so be gentle. I'm a skeptic (I post at JREF, BAUT, and Skeptical Community, to name a few forums.)
If this guy believes in Atlantis, get him to show you where it is on a simple map of the world. Remind him that the only reference to Atlantis older than 100 years or so is from Plato (The Timaeus or The Critias, or both - I forget at the moment), who said it was outside the Pillars of Hercules (the entrance to the Mediterranean). Then find a decent map of the ocean floor, showing that a continent the 'size of Asia' (according to Plato) DOES NOT EXIST UNDER THE ATLANTIC.
Knowing woos, he might waffle on a bit, but it should cause major doubts in his mind.
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bugamok
User Karma: 0
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/28 16:43Oh man, crystal skulls? I had an archaeology professor once who got to take a look at a couple of those things. She's a specialist in early Central American cultures. And she says all it takes is one glance to see that the damn things have modern tool marks on them.
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bugamok
User Karma: 0
Re:I'm gonna need some help on this, guys - 2007/02/28 16:43Oh man, crystal skulls? I had an archaeology professor once who got to take a look at a couple of those things. She's a specialist in early Central American cultures. And she says all it takes is one glance to see that the damn things have modern tool marks on them.
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